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Topic: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Good News Everyone or Bad News.  Depends how you look at it.

I've been learning C in college and will be moving my version of the engine into OpenGL.  This has a few advantages such as being crossplatform and having low-spec requirements.

I'm currently setting up a PowerMac G3 to use as the development environment.  If it can run on this computer it should be able to run on just about anything from the last 8-10 years.

Spec Information wrote:

The specs of my computer are:
PowerPC G3 @ 350mhz
512mb RAM PC133
ATI Rage 128

I'm going to update to a Radion7000 because OSX doesn't support hardware 3d on Rage 128 so it would be software 3d until then.

For mac users: there is one issue.  In order to make a binary that works on both PPC and Intel it will have to be OSX 10.4+.  It will not work on 10.2 or 10.3.

For Windows Users: Anything newer than (including) XP should work.

Linux Users:  I have no idea.

What does this mean for UDK Sonic Xtreme?
Andrew will continue to get development for the UDK engine.  The UDK engine is much more flexible and can be used for more than just Sonic Xtreme.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

So essentially a practically identical port of AXSX on UDK, running on OpenGL so older PC's can play it?

PunBB bbcode test

3 (edited by CrazedGunmang96 2013-09-29 22:31:15)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Oh ok, so THIS is what your surprise was going to be! cool man thanks.

Just a random question, do you think it would be possible to do a Sonic Xtreme remake or original sonic game altogether with the Source engine? Also will this actually be up to par/similar to the UDK one in any way.

Also this is just a completely nuts idea I had before, but what would you think of an Xtreme engine on the Virtual Boy? call me crazy but I honestly think that could be pretty cool, though everything would be...well Red. and Black tongue

Also any ideas for a 3DS port? Yes I'm fully aware of Lost World but I'd actually I think much rather play actual Xtreme on a 3DS.

The fisheye and everything would actually be pretty perfect like that, don't you think? also the added depth perception could definitely help a bit with the level design.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

I also had a crazy idea of doing it in the Goldsrc engine.

One more question about you/drew's recreation; do you thing either or both of you could make a user level building mode selectable from the menu? from what I understand of the description of Ofer's engine, it was basically like Minecraft like over 10 years earlier, but in the form of a Sonic sandbox thing.

But yeah make it like what I understand Ofer's to be, with the live testing and everything. Basically it can be a sandbox mode and as described actually kind of like Minecraft, but a recreation of Ofer's actual engine with maybe some tweaks to make it more user friendly, and the ability to save levels and play them through either in the normal game or just reload the file back into the builder.

Also maybe the ability to go between live testing and just block building the levels.

Lol, I'm sorry for these crazy posts, just some ideas I've had that I think you guys could use/give opinion on.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Will there be improvements to your original GM engine if basically you're porting that over?

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

meepmeep189 wrote:

So essentially a practically identical port of AXSX on UDK, running on OpenGL so older PC's can play it?

Yes and No.  Yes it will look like Sonic Xtreme, but no it will not be exactly the same.  Since I haven't done much development on it yet.  I really can't say what will be different and what will be the same.  For the most part they should be very similar.

Older PCs can play it along with other operating systems.

Oh ok, so THIS is what your suprise was going to be! cool man thanks.

Well this isn't my entire surprise.  Only part of it.  I'd rather show my surprise then announce it.

My version will have a level editor.  My 'dream' right now is to make it so that the entire level can be built using it.  It will be on a blocks system.

This should be a improvement upon the GM engine.  I can't port the GM engine over because the GM engine is rather proprietary to GM only.  The biggest improvement people will see if framerate and compatibility.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

ok, cool

8 (edited by CrazedGunmang96 2013-09-19 04:03:21)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

So you're redoing it from scratch in OpenGL? Also idk, would there be any chance of a 3DS version of some sort as far fetched as that sounds.

are you actually aiming to recreate the ofer engine or something slightly/completely different? again I'm sorry for so many questions.

well, thx for taking the time to do this I suppose, us with crappier computers will appreciate it, lol.

do you think xtreme or a different sonic game could actually be done in Source

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

I think that it would be a while before Xeniczone is able to catch to where the udk AXSX is currently at. There is a lot of work that needs to be done. but when he does catch up. it has potential to surpass the udk version since its built from the ground up just for Sonic X-treme. I also believe It wont have as many bugs as UDK version.
I wont be able to help him much in the way of Graphics and level layouts at first since i'm working steadily on UDK version right now and don't want to detour away from finishing w( my time is stretched very thin as it is now.

This is still up in the air but, I spoke with Xeniczone yesterday about the level rotations system. It may be done differently than how it is currently being handled. Instead of sonic walking around freely and than than changing gravity based on the slope angle that sonic is currently touching.
The Gravity change may more closely resemble the E3 promo video rotation system.
this way you get 2 version of X-treme to play with.


The UDK version of the engine wont have any kind of level editor built into the main menu. however if you are familiar with UDK, there is a world editor built in and yes you can do drop in and out gameplay, that's what I use to test levels currently.

Another difference between the udk Version is that I build levels in 3DS max out of cubes, than all the inner faces are manually removed and all polygons are than welded to optimize the levels as best as they can be.( single mesh instead of 1000s of cubes.) ( this process has been sped up with a max-script that I have which automatically removes the faces if 2 cube normals line up)

  However we can still use cubes in the UDK version. In fact I have over 500 Cube combination templates set up with various shapes and hulls that could be used to produce levels quickly if someone needed to add a loop or level shape.
You also have access to individual cube or ramp blocks.
Everything is drag and drop friendly using udk's content browser.(including textures)
However there is no auto weld feature for UDK, so the levels would still be cubes unless using an outside program to build and optimize levels.


In the past me and Xeniczone talked about doing a custom level editor which automatically welded vertex to make multiple blocks into a single mesh with Game maker, we had a proof of concept auto weld feature finished ( either made by Xeniczone or my friend josh who put the example together, I can't quite remember)
There was also an object placement editor that was pretty nifty for the GM version.

Concept for the level editor tool that I came up with.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4470/gui2.png

A newer idea that I had would be to build a voxel rendering engine. And in that engine the user could quickly draw out the levels using the mouse , than fill in ramps here and there.
After the level was blocked out, The user could than add textures to the voxels by directly drawing on them with a texture selected. ( voxel engines also have a very small footprint on the hard disk, you could possibly put the whole game on an oldschool floppy disk! ( well if it weren't for the textures anyways)

AXSX Lead

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Andrew, are you going to help XenicZone with sprites and stuff?

11 (edited by Vortex 2013-09-19 14:07:34)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Another question, what's up with this level system? I'm level 3 now, what does that mean?

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Ok cool Andrew, thx. Will the OpenGL one have ability to have the level editor be like that too?

Also yes, I think I did know about the built in UDK level editor from your pics, but have no idea how to access it. Was barely familiar with UDK and the GDK engines before I discovered this project.

How close would you say in % the GDK version is close to being done? don't pressure yourself though, if you don't want to answer that that's fine, just curious.

13 (edited by CrazedGunmang96 2013-09-19 14:28:54)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Yeah though don't know much about UDK development.

Hey Xen quick question: would you be able to actually write some kind of software rendering for the UDK version? so that actually could be played by whoever possibly, without a giant watermark pasted on the bottom of the screen and forced need for a tiny window, lol.

Do you think you could teach me how to program? nvm I guess though I know both of you guys are busy.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

You don't need to learn how to program to be able to set up levels using UDK.

Go to http://www.unrealengine.com/udk/ download UDK,
than go to http://udn.epicgames.com/Main/WebHome.html which is like a wiki for UDK of sorts.
you can also go to Youtube and search getting started with udk, or search for any aspect that you'd like to learn. Its easy !

P.S. I don't think Xeniczone would be able to wright a renderer for UDK as UDK is a closed source engine. We don't have access to that sort of base code.

AXSX Lead

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Vortex wrote:

Andrew, are you going to help XenicZone with sprites and stuff?

If he wants to use the sprit-sheets or other content that I have already set up than sure.
I wont be taking any time to make new content for the new engine( so early on), Everything graphical would need to be something that is already finished or wait for it to be done in the order in which it will be created.
I've mostly been working on level stuff and learning UDK.
As for boss content, I don't have anything completed beyond what has been made for Game maker. I don't think any boss stage graphics will be started until after the new year at the least.

I think Xeniczone will be busy with setting up other stuff until then anyways. There is a lot of work ahead for us both! I don't know if Xeniczone wants to take anyone on, but he may be open for extra art guys to help fill any gaps that I leave open if he needs something done sooner

AXSX Lead

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Wow, I leave for a day and there are almost a page full of questions . big_smile Hopefully I will answer them all.  If not feel free to ask again.

CrazedGunmang;
1. The entire engine will be built from scratch in the old OpenGL with the goal of being cross platform.  As far as I know, the 3DS doesn't have a homebrew scene therefore it cannot be ported to the 3DS because there is no way for me to program for it.

2. I will be making a Level Editor first.  Since the entire game revolves around the level editor is is kind of needed.  No the level editor will not be accessible from the menu.  It will be an entirely different program.  I don't know about a sandbox thing, but I guess I could make a 'test level' part to the level select screen.  You make the level in the LEVEL EDITOR then you move the file over the game and select 'TEST LEVEL' in the level select which will disable the timer and deaths.  Again just ideas nothing written down yet.

3. I'm aiming to recreate the videos seen at E3.  Which to my understanding is Coffin's engine though I don't know the details.  Andrew and I refer to the E3 videos as the 'Saturn Version' and the version shown later by Chris in ~2006 as the 'PC Version.'  Chris said this wasn't entirely correct, but that is how we describe them.

I plan on remaking the 'Saturn Version' while Andrew plans on remaking the 'Saturn and PC versions.'  I know the 'PC Versions' look better, but I don't relate to it as much.  This is because I've always remember Sonic Xtreme as the videos/pictures shown in the magazines during the 90s.  If Chris Senn never released the videos/pictures of the 'pc version' I/we would have never known of their existence.  I also assume that people who haven't been keeping up with Sonic Xtreme wouldn't know that the 'pc version' even exists.

4. I'm not sure what you mean by 'do you think xtreme or a different sonic game could actually be done in Source'

5. OpenGL can do anything you want it to do.  If you program it properly it will do what you program it to do.  OpenGL is just a library that allows simple cross-compatible access to the video cards.  Don't think of OpenGL as a game engine, because it is not.  A game engine is a compilation of codes used to make games sometimes so high level that they can only make specific games.  OpenGL is not that.  It is a graphic library.  It makes pretty pictures based on the code it is fed.   That is all it does.

6. But to answer your question, yes that would be my goal for a level editor.

7. As Andrew stated.  UDK is closed source.  A software render is not your solution for UDK.  UDK is an advanced engine.  If you don't have the power to render it with hardware support, there is no way it will work with software. 

Think of it this way.  Your computer has 2 Processors. 
-One is set up to crunch numbers, the CPU.
-The other is set up to calculate vertex, the GPU or graphic card.

If you enable software rendering you're taking all the information that is normally sent to the graphic card and sending it to the CPU.  Now your CPU has to crunch the numbers and calculate the vertexes.  It has to run double time.  While it may fix the compatibility issue, you still wouldn't be running the game.

8.  As andrew stated.  The OpenGL engine will be self-sustanable.  Most of what is already made is good to go.  The only help I would need is with custom sprites and models (Nack, MetSon, Guardian Sphinx), but this is where our engines will probably differ again.  Andrew has been cleaning up the models such as adding more vertexes to the models, but I plan to keep them as original as possible.  Though they may still need cleaning up.

An example I can remember is the sonic model uses a glitch on the Saturns rendering system.  While it would look correct on the Saturn it would look wrong on the computer.  That would have to be fixed for my version.

Vortex;
9. The level system is basically how many posts you have.  There are some exclusive levels that are by invite only.  Level V is by invite only, but it doesn't mean anything.  I don't know what I'm going to do with it.  Maybe official testers who knows.  Level IX is moderator. and Level X is admin.

17 (edited by CrazedGunmang96 2013-09-19 18:29:05)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

well, like I said Swiftshader actually works though it's laggy on this PC, thanks for so many answers though, lol.

And Andrew, not just to do things with UDK, I mean could you guys just generally teach me programming things, an interest I've always sorta had, but I don't know if I'd have the patience anyway.

And what I meant by Source is the Source engine by Valve. (TF2, HL2, L42D, that's a lot of 2s lol)

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Looking at the picture on a bigger screen (was on basically a mobile device) that's cool too but what I meant by cube based system was kind of basically Minecraft in a way.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

This is really terrific and all, but I hope we're not getting too ambitious with forks. We don't even have a complete single experience yet, so hopefully this won't impact what's already been in the works. Seeing how Xeniczone's branch is going to to be mostly unrelated to Andrew's, this probably won't be a problem.

Still, that's just a word of caution (and ideally an unnecessary one).

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

@ Moop.
Yeah this fork should not add any delays to what I'm working on, ( at least till Xeniczone has something functional)

Also @ CrazedGunmang96
I wouldn't be a very good programming tutor. I'm more of a technical artist.
May I suggest learning on a programming website with proper learning materials and programming forums .
Also its hard to find the time to reply here on the forums let alone teach some things.

AXSX Lead

21 (edited by CrazedGunmang96 2013-09-19 22:01:11)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

That's ok, I meant Xeniczone more specifically though.

22 (edited by Xeniczone 2013-09-20 02:58:33)

Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

Moop wrote:

This is really terrific and all, but I hope we're not getting too ambitious with forks. We don't even have a complete single experience yet, so hopefully this won't impact what's already been in the works. Seeing how Xeniczone's branch is going to to be mostly unrelated to Andrew's, this probably won't be a problem.

Still, that's just a word of caution (and ideally an unnecessary one).

There is a few reasons for this fork one major one I haven't announced.  I wanted to continue my engine, but since gamemaker is useless and I have a college projects coming up in the future that I can use my engine to demonstrate.  I can't use UDK because that wasn't made from me by scratch.

CrazedGunmang96 wrote:

That's ok, I meant Xeniczone more specifically though.

I've been self-tought for much of the stuff.  It wasn't till I attended college that I realized that C++ wasn't so scary.

There is really nothing more I can teach you that isn't already on the web.  A word of advice is to start off small.  If you try to jump straight into something complex you will be lost.  Start with hello world.  Learn about the variables.  Learn about IF, Switch, For, while.  Learn Functions & Libraries.  C++ has a lot of nice short cut features.  For example in C you have to type i=i+1, but a shortcut in C++ would be i+=1.

The next thing you have to do is practice.  If you write the hello world and then never look at it again for a month you will forget everything you have learnt.  write, write, write.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention.  MATH!  Math is a HUGE part of programming.  Using OpenGL it took me a good 5mins + a sheet of paper just to figure out how to calculate the FPS.  Again, OpenGL is a library not a game engine.  Simple stuff like frame per second must be calculated because they are not given.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

where would you recommend to look

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

do you think I can ever get good with music, I need more confidence with that and a whole lot of other things. Electronic production is what I'm talking about btw.

I can but I'm lazy with it and extremely reluctant to even try, I really don't even know what to do about it  and I keep telling myself it's something I want to do but I can't even let myself try anymore, ugh.

Don't mind me I guess. Darnit I'm like affecting my own mood now, I'm actually in a kind of good one for once.

Eh, don't mind the above sentence, don't know  why I'm writing it.

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Re: [Sept. 18 2013] Development Fork

CrazedGunmang96 wrote:

do you think I can ever get good with music, I need more confidence with that and a whole lot of other things. Electronic production is what I'm talking about btw.

I can but I'm lazy with it and extremely reluctant to even try, I really don't even know what to do about it  and I keep telling myself it's something I want to do but I can't even let myself try anymore, ugh.

Don't mind me I guess. Darnit I'm like affecting my own mood now, I'm actually in a kind of good one for once.

Eh, don't mind the above sentence, don't know  why I'm writing it.

You can only learn or become good at something if you try. trying is the first step !
now get out there and do it !

Also google is a good place to start looking for information. just search something like beginning programming .

AXSX Lead